CreationKit:Community Portal/Organization

Please add new topics of discussion to the top of the page, with its own secondary header (example: == Header ==).

Making Papyrus entries the main ones

(Moved from Talk:Reference functions)

This page seems to be talking about the old scripting system, which was used in Oblivion and the Fallout games. As far as I can see, there are two ways in which it could be updated to be relevant for Skyrim:

• Change the page to talk about console functions, which still use the syntax of the old language
• Re-write the page to talk about how to call non-global functions, and why global functions are different. This might work better with renaming the page, though, so perhaps it would be better to create a separate page for this (assuming one doesn't exist already?)

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

-- Cipscis 18:41, 9 February 2012 (EST)

I suggest rewrite the page to talk about console and condition functions. We also need to figure out a way to handle these two scripting languages effectively.

--Qazaaq 08:56, 10 February 2012 (EST)

I've added a disclaimer to the top of this page for now, but it still needs a bit of a re-write.

Perhaps a template with a disclaimer like this would be a good idea for other pages in a similar situation? I'm not very experienced with templates, so if anyone else could set one up I'd be grateful.

-- Cipscis 17:42, 14 February 2012 (EST)

Discussion branched to more general topics, decidedly unrelated to reference functions, so I've moved it to the new area that was for just that porpoise.

--Catwheezle 02:37, 18 February 2012 (EST)

Yeah, I've noticed there's a serious overlap between the URL-space of the two scripting languages, which makes it a confusing mess to read. How's about a template for each type? They'd stick an icon in the top-left of the page, that'd make it clear and intuitive what you're looking at:

- a console page (icon: black screenlike consoley thing with a '>' in it?)

- a papyrus page (icon: a scroll? Or does Papyrus have a logo?)

- a creation kit page (icon: simplified image of the CK UI, or maybe the creation engine logo?)

- or something entirely different (no icon)

I've only minimal knowledge of templates myself, but I've been meaning to learn, so I might be able to make that work, maybe? I'll have a bash, if it sounds useful. --Catwheezle 19:13, 15 February 2012 (EST)

The overlap in URL-space is something that concerns me a bit. In my opinion, searching for "PlaceAtMe" should go to the page for the Papyrus version of this function, but instead it goes to the console version. It would be a pretty large undertaking, but I'd love to be able to just use function names to redirect to the correct documentation page for the Papyrus version, if it exists.

Disambiguation pages would work for native functions that have different versions (for example, Cast - Scroll v.s. Cast - Spell), and like console functions link to Papyrus versions, Papyrus functions should link to Console/Condition versions if they exist.

I might be getting a bit ahead of myself there, though. That would be a pretty big undertaking, I think.

As for templates, I really support the idea of using templates for function definitions. We did it on the GECK Wiki as well, although I don't think we ever managed to convert all of the functions to use it. I don't know much about templates, but you could take a look at the GECK Wiki's Function and FunctionArgument templates for some examples.

Ideally, I guess, the template would be set up so that if the function wasn't defined using the template, it would still add whatever header or image we end up using, so it can be applied relatively quickly to all the appropriate pages without needing to convert the documentation of every function to the template's syntax first.

-- Cipscis 20:57, 15 February 2012 (EST)

Proposal As I noted on the forums already I think the console/condition functions shouldn't be the default. We should definitely move them to a page with (condition) behind the name. There's no need for manual work, a bot can do this. We have to agree on a term for this though, I have the following suggestions:

usage:

• condition
• console
• condition/console

script language: (this term is used all over, but I don't think it's an official name)

• tesscript or tes script, TESScript, TES script, etc

definition location:

• data file

--Qazaaq 14:42, 16 February 2012 (EST)

Interesting, and raises lots of questions.

1) Is that where we report bugs like "Creation Kit:Copyrights was deleted but is still linked from the edit page, even though that doesn't show on its 'what links here'? page, and I can't fix that."?

2) I'm not sure if the above are a list of suggestions for possibilities, or a proposal for a set of terms to use in different situations. "Condition", "console", and "condition/console" seem like the correct three terms to use for things which can be either or both). Either way, they seem like the right terms to me. 'TES Script' seems the clearest and most readable form, particularly for non-English-first-language users.

3) Who's got the botting skills to do this? Would it also be possible to apply a template at the same time? Because these all really *ought* to be templated the same way as the procedures are now.

4) How should we deal with stubs, which are nothing but the command name? I would vote to use Template:Incomplete Article on them.

5) Would it be possible to have a checkbox on the search that would allow someone to filter only by a certain category of thing (tutorial, console commands, papyrus pthings, etc), just like you can filter by talk pages, content, etc now?

--Catwheezle 16:06, 16 February 2012 (EST)

I notice that Bethesda appears to prefer the term "Legacy" for the name of the deprecated script? A rather romantic term. --Catwheezle 01:46, 17 February 2012 (EST)

Heh, I quite like that. I'm a little wary of using a name like TESScript, as it was also used in the Fallout games and, of course, Skyrim is still an Elder Scrolls game.

-- Cipscis 02:21, 17 February 2012 (EST)

In Morrowind and Oblivion, they were sometimes referred to as MorrowScript and ObliviScript, respectively. SkyScript would be misleading, though, since ultimately Papyrus is still a scripting language, albeit a much more robust one.

I have no time right now, but hopefully tonight I'll have some real responses.

Dragoon Wraith TALK 11:16, 17 February 2012 (EST)

Wiki based discussion

We have forums for this stuff? Where? --Catwheezle 16:06, 16 February 2012 (EST)

As for forums, those would be here.

Dragoon Wraith TALK 11:16, 17 February 2012 (EST)

Darn, I was hoping for wiki-editing-specific forums somewhere. Is the beth modding forum the right place to discuss wiki formatting/policy and bugs? Geck had a specific place for that kind of discussion, but all I've found here is Help:Wiki Editing Style Guide. --Catwheezle 14:30, 17 February 2012 (EST)

Now there is: Creation Kit:Community Portal

--Qazaaq 15:42, 17 February 2012 (EST)

Yay :)

--Catwheezle 02:37, 18 February 2012 (EST)

Icon templates to differentiate page types

As a beginning towards differentiating the various page types, I made a couple of tests.

Very simple effort made as proof of concept at Template:Console and Template:Papyrus. These templates can themselves (I suspect) be included at the top of some future function template, but can also be used on non-function pages. I've added them to two pages as a demo, for the time being: Category:Console Commands and Category:Papyrus.

Let me know if it's the right direction or whether I should revert and try again, or what! :) --Catwheezle 01:01, 16 February 2012 (EST)

The images give a good indication of the script language you're looking at. I'd move them to the right side of the page though, they're not really part of the content of the page.

--Qazaaq 14:42, 16 February 2012 (EST)

Done - with the Papyrus template. But it really doesn't feel right to me there, though: having the type icon on the left is the wiki style, established by Template:NewFeature and Template:SteamTip (both of which, yeah, I just created, but they were around as inline code before that!). It just makes more sense to have the thing preceded by the marker that tells you what it's about: it's a "what follows is on this topic" sign, rather than a "this image is related to what you just read" sign. Stuff on the RHS is literally *invisible* to people: eye-tracking shows that it's utterly ignored by many, which is why that space is typically reserved in wikis for infoboxes and other stuff like that, that people have to actively look for, and would "get in the way" on other parts of the page.

Personally, I feel the images as I made them are way too large (150px), and need scaling down to 64px or less, but leaving on the left. So I tried that as an alternative, with the Console template.

Which feels best? --Catwheezle 16:06, 16 February 2012 (EST)

Box templates to replace the callout box code seen most commonly on tutorial pages

(Am clicking the "+" icon at the top of the page, to see whether this new section adds to top or bottom of page: I suspect the bottom, sadly.)

I've added all templates I've found to Category:Templates, so they are perhaps more discoverable and useful to editors. These were:

• Template:Afd
• Template:Forums
• Template:Merge
• Template:Procedures
• Template:Tutorial Bottom Bar
• Template:TutorialIndex
• Template:Unsigned

I've also made a couple of test differentiation templates, described elsewhere:

• Template:Console
• Template:Papyrus

I made some more templates, too, to replace the blocks of code for making callout boxes, as seen mostly in the tutorials:

• Template:InDepth
• Template:NewFeature
• Template:ProTip
• Template:SteamTip
• Template:WarningBox
• Template:ErrorBox

Would appreciate feedback on whether any of that was worthwhile or useful to anyone :) --Catwheezle 02:44, 18 February 2012 (EST)

Couple notes on these templates:

1) they cope badly with large blobs of text, as seen in Function Reference. I'm hoping the max length of the arg can be specified somehow.

2) I have no idea how to embed tables in them, as seen at the bottom of Bethesda Tutorial Papyrus Events and Properties. This might just be another instance of the above, though.

--Catwheezle 02:52, 18 February 2012 (EST)